Juggernaut

[Gandalf]

There are many things my ogre team can at least try to do now, that a fresh ogre team would have very little chance of accomplishing (eg ogre dodges, passes). But now I would like to add another string to their bow, in the form of juggernaut (remember that ogres only have strength rolls available usually, so there isn't a huge degree of variation in their standard skills).

Juggernaught only has an impact when blitzing, and it means
a) both down can be treated as a pushed
b) It ignores Fend, Stand Firm and Wrestle (The only skills to negate Stand Firm and Wrestle?).
So, as well as getting round the difficulty of accessing block (needing doubles), it also provides other unique benefits - another "bow" to the armory.

The question is - who do I give it to? My ogres are starting to become specialised and I'm not sure who of them is most likely to be blitzing. A "standard" ogre build entails giving them Guard & Break Tackle, this makes them good both in melees and getting out of them, so I'm not sure there is such a build as a dedicated ogre blitzer - nor would I particularly want one, it's nice to have multiple players who can do the same sort of thing, given that bone-head afflicts them regularly. On the other hand I think giving two ogres Juggernaut will be passing up too many other skills. I would like to have at least 3 ogres with Break Tackle and 3 with Guard in the medium-term, too often I found myself without an ogre in the right place to do what I wanted to do.

The fast ones
1) +mv, guard, break tackle (no skill-up for a while, 17 SPP required)
2) +mv, break tackle
The agile ones
3) +ag, Strong Arm
4) +ag (really torn on whether to get Strong Arm next for this guy or not)
If I get a double then I will be getting pass (3) or sure hands (4).
The blocky one
5) -mv, Block, Multiple Block (bad idea for many reasons - will be getting guard or stand firm next)
The other one
6) Guard (possibly piling on for this guy next)

So... opinions?

[Raveen]

It's worth noting that juggernaut stacks with block so you can cancel wrestle on a both down.

[Gandalf]

So block applies and wrestle doesn't? Cool. Not that my guy with block is ever going to do anything other than stand in the middle of the pitch hitting people.

[lawastooshort]

Number 2, because he is the most mobile.

[Raveen]

I agree with La, to be a blitzer requires being able to move. The question then becomes whether to making him a killer with PO or keep him on his feet.

[Gandalf]

I'm edging towards 2 for similar mobility reasons. The argument I heard for 4 was to give him the ball (+ag) and then blitz downfield with him, and juggernaut gives him a wider range of possible targets. Also I feel like my ag3 ogre does a lot of the blitzing at the moment, purely because he tends to lurk downfield. It would be nice to have access to stats regarding how many blitzes each individual player had made.

Rav - definitely on his feet - don't want to wait to 51SPP to get Piling On on somebody, plus if he's standing he will have more choices of who to blitz next turn. His next skill would probably be guard. I don't think it's possible to have too much guard/break tackle on the ogres.

[Raveen]

Guard and BT are solid choices for an Ogre (and get enough guard and your Snots become viable blockers in a pinch).

Guard is probably the lowest priority on the blitzer - he's more likely to be outwith the main melee - but even then it's not a bad choice.

I know it's a double but Juggernaut works really well with Frenzy - turn a both down into a push back and extra block. With an Ogre would I take block or frenzy after Juggs? That's a really hard call.

I wouldn't choose to blitz with my ball carrier for fear of leaving him exposed, but when you're carrying the ball with a ST5 player it's not quite the same issue. I would say though that I've seen Tomb Guardians taken down with relative ease if they get out on their own by people ganging up.

[id3nt1ty]

Having a blitzer who isn't going to get bogged down by tackle zones and can ignore both down sounds like a good idea. That's how notjarvis got the jump on my ball carrier when I wasn't expecting it.

Juggernaught is great, but you must remember to pick the both down option, which I found counter intuitive. Almost all the Khorne Daemons blitzers have juggernaught and frenzy, which is very useful when they don't start with block.