Year off for the winner?

[Raveen]

Gandalf wanted to discuss the rule that the winning team of the RT Cup takes a year off to tour the Old World.

After the first season NJ swapped out his Chaos team for a fairly miserable run with some Lizardmen. He's now able to bring the Chaos back but will be a season behind in development terms.

On consideration, I think we should remove this rule, or at very least modify it. Our seasons are so short that a winning team has likely played less than 10 games and is still relatively early in development. A big part of the fun of BB is developing your team and it's no fun to have that taken away when you've only just got started.

I propose that we either remove the rule completely or modify it so that it only applies to winners with a TV over a certain limit (1750? 2000?).

I'd also like to set a time or TV limit for teams to stop someone hogging a race for too long which could work in the same way, maybe a higher TV limit for non-winners.

What are your thoughts? At the moment we're in no rush and the existing winners' entry into Season 3 will stand until a final decision is made.

[Gandalf]

Thanks for starting a thread for this. To clarify - I'm not actively campainging either way here - just that the rule shouldn't be changed without discussion. I'm somewhat taking a "devil's advocate" position below - ie I'm not sure I really believe everything I have written but I want to encourage debate.

[quote="Raveen"]
On consideration, I think we should remove this rule, or at very least modify it. Our seasons are so short that a winning team has likely played less than 10 games and is still relatively early in development. A big part of the fun of BB is developing your team and it's no fun to have that taken away when you've only just got started.[/quote]

If you win a season then you've definately "had some fun" out of your team already. And it's not "taken away" - just delayed. Also, this season coming will have even more games.

I propose that we either remove the rule completely or modify it so that it only applies to winners with a TV over a certain limit (1750? 2000?).

This post misses out on the reasoning behind the rule in the first place. I thought it was mainly to encourage variety?

I'd also suggest an absolute limit on competing - perhaps either a certain TV or if you win 3 titles.

I'd also like to set a time or TV limit for teams to stop someone hogging a race for too long which could work in the same way, maybe a higher TV limit for non-winners.

The pool of races who haven't been picked yet is getting quite tiny. I don't see the harm in some overlap - eg my Wood Elves are sitting out this season, so what if someone else picks them? I don't see the issue in both those 2 wood elf teams competing in season 4; it would seems harsh to make one sit out.

There's definately something a bit weird about a massive TV-team playing a load of smaller ones. This is partially why I will sit my wood elves out from season 3 regardless of the decision reached - it thumps all the other teams in team-value stakes.

[notjarvis]

I think a TV limit at the start of a season is a fairly sensible idea

To be honest - although I won the first cup - there were at least two teams with a TV which were a noticeably higher than my Chaos team's TV (MY chaos team had only 2 level ups through it's whole run IIRC).

Some races skill up and pick up TV a lot quicker than others so a limit on number of tournaments played would probably stop some races from ever getting a good team grown.

No real preference. 1750 sounds reasonable.

(I'd hope for a bit of common sense too - feel a bit Meh about someone shedding their team down to 9 uber players to get within the TV limit.....)


P.S. I fancied a change anyway after the first season. (really disliked playing lizardmen though - hoped they would grow on me, but the crap skill availability put me off more).

[Raveen]

I like the diversity of BB and, whilst I don't want to force anything on anyone, I think it's fun to play with and against different teams as often as possible.

I'm not too keen on having multiples of the same race - with 8 teams that's 25% of the whole competition being Wood Elves (or whatever). I hope we'd always be able to find an amicable solution to any arguments and the Commissioner's decision will be the final arbiter. I'm happy to leave that question open though and cross the bridge when we come to it.

Another thought - we could have an open league that sits alongside the proper RT Cup. The teams on tour and any other old and retired teams could live in there and play the occasional friendly when people fancy it. It could also be used to test out new teams in a more realistic environment than single player. There would have to be some sort of limit on the number of games being played by teams that will want to rejoin the main RT Cup (maybe limit it to two or three games per season?). Use of this league would be totally optional but would allow people to play on off weeks if they wanted to without buggering up the schedule.

[id3nt1ty]

I like a bit of diversity too, so I'd be keen for no duplicates too.

As for the winning team taking a year off: I'm not fussed with someone wanting to continue to play their team provided they don't have a massive TV. Perhaps if someone else wants to play that team, the non-winner gets priority.

As for the open league, you'd probably have to enforce games are ranked so that they show up in the stats, otherwise you have to trust us to be, you know... honest with the number of games played.

[lawastooshort]

[quote="notjarvis"]
(I'd hope for a bit of common sense too - feel a bit Meh about someone shedding their team down to 9 uber players to get within the TV limit.....)
[/quote]

The value of the lineman mercs you'd get should be taken into account - something I am aware of as many of my players have been killed: I have 8, so my TV is 150 below what it actually is once a match starts.

Anyway, I don't feel I should have any further input to this as I am new to the playing group. If it is generally accepted that a team shouldn't be retained then I will happily change (I hope there is a team left I don't terribly dislike), and the OverCheesers will return at a later date.

[Gandalf]

I hope we'd always be able to find an amicable solution to any arguments and the Commissioner's decision will be the final arbiter. I'm happy to leave that question open though and cross the bridge when we come to it.

I'd say most experienced team gets preference.... I really want to bring my wood elves back in season 4!

[quote="lawastooshort"]
The value of the lineman mercs you'd get should be taken into account - something I am aware of as many of my players have been killed: I have 8, so my TV is 150 below what it actually is once a match starts.
[/quote]
Good point - we should work off a modified team value that takes this into account.

I disagree with any proposed limit being 1750. My Wood elf team is already worth 1690 with 70k in the bank, so if I spent it I'd be over the limit. I'm not saying this purely for selfish reasons - but also because I think the possibility of a team only playing 2 seasons before having to be retired is a bit lame.

Anyway, I don't feel I should have any further input to this as I am new to the playing group. If it is generally accepted that a team shouldn't be retained then I will happily change (I hope there is a team left I don't terribly dislike), and the OverCheesers will return at a later date.

I don't see why you are new should mean you shouldn't offer an opinion. Although RT does have a leadership we're pretty much a democracy in practice. I don't think any team should be forced to play a team they really dislike, so long as there is a reasonable pool of teams they are happy to play.

Whilst I agree that variety is good - if the league gets quite big (10-12 or even more) I think it would feel quite artificial forcing all teams to be different. Anyway, there's not too much variety between some teams - playing a Wood Elf or High Elf team isn't a vastly different experience.

Perhaps if someone else wants to play that team, the non-winner gets priority.

I LOVE this idea.

As for an open league - I'm not a fan - I think if people want to play friendlies they can do so in the old RT open league, with separate teams.

[notjarvis]

[quote="Gandalf"]
I disagree with any proposed limit being 1750. My Wood elf team is already worth 1690 with 70k in the bank, so if I spent it I'd be over the limit. I'm not saying this purely for selfish reasons - but also because I think the possibility of a team only playing 2 seasons before having to be retired is a bit lame.
[/quote]

I'm not sold On any value (although teams above 2000 are pretty stupid powerful compared to any starting teams - that would be the highest I'd feel comfortable with).

To be honest, I'd have thought getting that much TV in 2 seasons (of what - 9 games total?) is a rarity.  Some teams skill up really fast compared to others. My Saurus's played 4 games and have a TV 1010. My Chaos Team Played 4 games and has a TV of 1160
[quote="lawastooshort"]
[quote="notjarvis"]
(I'd hope for a bit of common sense too - feel a bit Meh about someone shedding their team down to 9 uber players to get within the TV limit.....)
[/quote]

The value of the lineman mercs you'd get should be taken into account - something I am aware of as many of my players have been killed: I have 8, so my TV is 150 below what it actually is once a match starts.
[/quote]

Definitely agree with that, but my point was I'd hope no-one would artificially kick players out or sell stuff to squeeze into a limit and compete.

As for an open league - I'm not a fan - I think if people want to play friendlies they can do so in the old RT open league, with separate teams.

I'm unsure. it would be nice to have some way to get a couple of skills before ploughing into a tournament, especially for brand new teams.

Putting Greehorn teams up against hardened teams with skills spread across them fells like it would be stupid and no fun.

[lawastooshort]

[quote="notjarvis"]
I'm unsure. it would be nice to have some way to get a couple of skills before ploughing into a tournament, especially for brand new teams.

Putting Greehorn teams up against hardened teams with skills spread across them fells like it would be stupid and no fun.
[/quote]

That's kind of true, although me and Identity did alright with rookie teams vs slightly more experienced teams (I don't know about him, but I very often felt like the underdog, but this was actually quite... liberating, I suppose).

I think it is a nice idea to have a small number of "friendlies" if you wanted but that it should be limited to say 3 or 6. First it is nice to get a team going, and second it is even nicer to get over the potential of your first league match causing multiple casualties and then having the rest of the league be a financial/numerical struggle.

[Gandalf]

[quote="notjarvis"]
I'm not sold On any value (although teams above 2000 are pretty stupid powerful compared to any starting teams - that would be the highest I'd feel comfortable with).

To be honest, I'd have thought getting that much TV in 2 seasons (of what - 9 games total?) is a rarity.  Some teams skill up really fast compared to others. My Saurus's played 4 games and have a TV 1010. My Chaos Team Played 4 games and has a TV of 1160[/quote]
It was 11 games - 10 actual ones plus the time Spinx disconnected so I got 2 x MVP's and lots of money from that :p It's that plus my team's incredible ability to not get serious injuries has led to the rather unlikely team value. Agree that over 2000 is silly.

I'm unsure. it would be nice to have some way to get a couple of skills before ploughing into a tournament, especially for brand new teams.

Putting Greehorn teams up against hardened teams with skills spread across them fells like it would be stupid and no fun.

Well, there are inducements to help even things up after all. But now the teams are getting more experienced I can see more of an argument for new teams to have at least a little experience. Even one pre-season friendly means you have half a chance of a level-up after the first competative game (ie one of your two MVP's gets at least 1 SPP from somewhere - not massively unlikely). On the flip side, with our seasons getting longer now, every team should develop skills through the competition, unlike Season 1 when there wern't many skills around even at the end.

[Raveen]

Ok, I've read through this discussion again and here's my proposed rule:

A Championship winning team that finishes their final game of the season with a TV of 2000 or greater is offered a lucrative sponsorship deal to tour the Old World for a year and they therefore niss the next season of the RT Cup. After that they may return in the same way as any other resting team.

The rule specifically mentions finishing the final game of the season so that you can't cut players to scrape under the barrier unless you do it before your last game. It also accepts that the champions may not play in the final week.

Not that I anticipate that anyone will be lawyering the rules but it never hurts to word things properly

[lawastooshort]

Ok, I've read through this discussion again and here's my proposed rule:

I think this sounds fair.

In any case mismatches between teams is part of the game, and one side having a TV300 higher does not make a game a foregone conclusion.

Even one pre-season friendly means you have half a chance of a level-up after the first competative game (ie one of your two MVP's gets at least 1 SPP from somewhere - not massively unlikely)

How about having an ongoing RT Open League wherein you can play whoever you want, whenever you want (such as between seasons), and let new teams into the league proper be allowed to have played a maximum of (say) 3 games in this Open League (and no other games/competitions)?

[notjarvis]

I like an open or friendly league idea, to be honest, as long as teams can't skill up ridiculously.

Feel like TV 2000 will completely overpower lesser teams. My Chaos are at TV 1600 or so, and I already feel a bit like a bully when I face the newest teams.

Unless a fair proportion of the league are at the same strength I suppose.

[Raveen]

I think that the idea behind the TV and inducements system is to make the underdog team able to win about 30% of the time (less when factoring in tiers etc.).

At 1600 TV vs a rookie team you'll be giving up a Wizard, a babe and Morg, or another star. That's enough to turn around a touchdown (see me vs Daigoro ) and cause some potentially serious damage.

I try to timetable the league so that new teams at least get to start by playing another new team.

[Gandalf]

I think that the idea behind the TV and inducements system is to make the underdog team able to win about 30% of the time (less when factoring in tiers etc.).

At 1600 TV vs a rookie team you'll be giving up a Wizard, a babe and Morg, or another star. That's enough to turn around a touchdown (see me vs Daigoro ) and cause some potentially serious damage.

I try to timetable the league so that new teams at least get to start by playing another new team.

In most matches, my inducements have resulted in nothing. Since I've switched to pogo-stick goblin man though and away from "need the dice to be with you" inducements like wizards, babes etc. things have improved though. Having an extra player who isn't ST1 helps the ogres out a fair bit.

re: TV rule.... is there never going to be a point when you need to retire a team for good? Maybe when they've won X number of titles? They can then be retired in glory. Maybe they can come back for rare "legend" matches or competitions. I don't really want to see many 2000 vs. 1000 games. Even with inducements, they will be uneven.

I didn't really like the open league idea but I'm a bit less cold about it now. Especially for new teams. How about we skew it to new teams and limit the number of games you're allowed to play in off-season based on TV?
1250 or less = 3 games
1260 - 1500 = 2 games
1510 - 1750 = 1 game
1760 + = no games
With exceptions allowed if the "1250 or less" group are having trouble getting their 3 games in? Or they can just play teams people have set up with no intention of entering them into competition. The games should still be played "to win" though ie no-one should just let the other team run in touchdowns. A reduction in the quantity of fouling would be understandable, though.

We already have an RT open league from pre-season 1, we could just use that?