Team progression

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Koln
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Team progression

Postby Koln » Mon Mar 04, 2013 11:38 am

So, how do you guys think we did last time? We certainly lacked understanding, but that's basically what the trainings are for :D. Some things we really need to improve though:

-Champion selection order: make our jungler pick first.
-Champion possibilities: some of us can play a lot of champions, some of us can play too few (like me for example).
-Possitions and builds: we should try to sinergize our builds.

The first of them is done quickly, the rest require some time to do ^^.

Thoughts?

Memento
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Re: Team progression

Postby Memento » Mon Mar 04, 2013 12:02 pm

I'm trying to learn more champs. Right now working on my Brand.

Also, I would say botlane should be first, but I guess it doesn't make that great a difference between those three (sup/ADC/jugnler).

I would also say that what we need to work on is when to put extra pressure on one lane. It seems to me that right now we are mostly focused on getting as much value as we can from laning, with the jungler coming to gank once in a while. I feel we could work a lot more on putting pressure on the lanes (eg. outnumbering them to take out tower or plain old tower diving gank), because people have caught up on "plain old ganking" by placing wards and such, making it very hard to back off.

We have to work out what is best with the whole "if you take tower too early they freeze the lane deep within their side of the map" issue. Should the tower be taken out so other lanes can be pressured by the team comp or should we maximize laning phase?

Also, even just having the jungler come by to help keep the opponent at bay while the lane farms a decent-sized wave could be enough advantage.


TLDR: I would say one solution to all these questions is just to comment on the lane more often. Have a running commentary (on the state of the game!) would help out with our situational awareness, which I think was something we had exploited really well in Allegiance. Here I feel the variables are much bigger (eg. you could encompass all of Allegiance by going on "positioning" but here positioning is just a tactic and not the strategy... Builds, map presence, etc here figure way too strong).
Last edited by Memento on Mon Mar 04, 2013 12:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Gandalf
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Re: Team progression

Postby Gandalf » Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:04 pm

I can see quite a few things I could do better. I lost top lane 2-0 to start with both times - I think I should've just got a philo stone, boots & armor, sat at my tower and not worry much about farm. I'm taking the 2 gp10 masteries for Singed now too, so if I have to play defensively at the start with him (as he is not great early game) the lack of farm matters even less. Also my build choices for cho wern't great.

Also I will yell more when someone is missing. In one game fiora came from my lane (top) into a teamfight at dragon and got lots of kills despite her being picked up by at least 1 ward and me saying she was coming. Personally I think you guys should've listened better but I'll yell more so I'm definately not in the wrong :p

So that's for me. Memento rightly points out that as a team there are things we can do better.

Also, even just having the jungler come by to help keep the opponent at bay while the lane farms a decent-sized wave could be enough advantage.

Yeah definately - a jungler does not have to get a kill in a gank for it to be worthwhile. Making him burn flash or have to use up health pots are also victories of sorts.

Can I also say it was a pleasure to play despite 2 defeats. There wasn't any yelling at each other (except for memento once or twice on chat) and we stuck together pretty well and improved a lot in our second game.

Possitions and builds: we should try to sinergize our builds.

Yeah - I hate seeing games where 2 people buy aegis for example (I know it's not a complete waste, but still, it's sub-optimal).
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Memento
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Re: Team progression

Postby Memento » Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:38 pm

Yeah, sorry about that one, Gandy. I've picked up quite a few bad habits from playing this game. I'm working on it, for real. I'll try to keep as calm as possible so we can actually focus on the game.

Also, RE: Singed. Pick up HP and armor/MR (depending on who you are up against) early game and give 0 fucks. Don't just wait at tower, go past him (just make sure you don't take tower hits), hamper him as much as possible from getting creeps by making him take damage, make sure you have poison on whenever he decides to chase and actually farm the creeps beyond his tower, not in the river area. Singed needs to pressure 24/7. Doesn't matter if they kill you a couple of times cause the jungler came. If the jungler/mid comes for you it's already a win.

Edit: If somebody comes, turn on ghost and ult and run away. Most likely than not you will make it out alive or have them be so out of position that any bit of help we offer results in an equal result.

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Re: Team progression

Postby Gandalf » Mon Mar 04, 2013 7:02 pm

[quote="Memento"]
Yeah, sorry about that one, Gandy. I've picked up quite a few bad habits from playing this game. I'm working on it, for real. I'll try to keep as calm as possible so we can actually focus on the game.[/quote]
It's OK, that's all I can ask for. Everyone plays better when we stay calm. :)

Also, RE: Singed. Pick up HP and armor/MR (depending on who you are up against) early game and give 0 fucks. Don't just wait at tower, go past him (just make sure you don't take tower hits), hamper him as much as possible from getting creeps by making him take damage, make sure you have poison on whenever he decides to chase and actually farm the creeps beyond his tower, not in the river area. Singed needs to pressure 24/7.

Umm.... completely disagree prior to level 6. Most characters are better than Singed early on.

IMO you gotta know your character's limitations and work with them, and not just assume that if you follow XYZ advice then victory will be yours (as most guides seem to say or infer, including yours here Memento!).
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Re: Team progression

Postby Phantom032 » Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:41 am

okay, lots of stuff - i guess i go by posting order.

Koln:
Picks -> I think jungler should pick first right now - most bans against unknown teams focus on junglers (or at least champs that can jungle well). It is quite possible that no good jungler pick is left if our jungler picks late (Like it happened in our 2nd(?) game where the enemy got hecarim). After that its support/AD picks if possible and if we managed that we will pick at least one of top and mid after the enemy for sure.

Champs -> If everyone learns to play 5 different champs for their preferred role there shouldnt ever be any difficulties if we dont ban our own best played champs. For botlane 3 would probably be sufficient as they are less targeted by bans - however as AD player i can tell you that playing with a different support (both champion and player) completely changes your lane so even with less champs theres more to learn.

Builds -> A few items (nearly all aura items) are REALLY powerful and - with the right team for them - a must to get. corki+taric+ap mid+malphite+amumu = if you dont have abyssal scepter on that team uninstall. Same for the AD aura with an AD heavy team.
Frozen heart is a must-have counter to irelia (well, no real counter but the only thing you CAN do against her carry-killing ability) and generally good if they have multiple autoattack based champs. Randuins omen is also nice for that, but cc reduction affects it so its no good vs irelia at all.
Runic Bulwark should be on nearly any team - its way too good.
Here is what I think: During champ select and loading screen we should be discussing WHAT aura items to get, WHO plans to get it and HOW FAR into the game, since sometimes you wont need frozen heart till lategame. If someone gets fed early obviously they can get one of the items instead of someone else, just make sure we are not building them twice. I guess a checklist for champ-select to talk about it would work to remind us. Who knows what else we manage to put on that list later (opening strategy, general strategy, blah blah)

Mem:
Taking a tower out too ealy is bad. However, once botlane has some items (lets say at least lvl 2 boots + BT or blade of ruined king) it will be possible to kill the tower and (IF they manage to freeze the lane) put pressure on mid tower next. With 2 towers up and 4 ppl mid they will have to group to defend the second tower at least. It is however really important that our adc has enough dmg to make a real difference in mid - the first tower there has to go down FAST, because once 3 ppl are defending it while their adc farms a frozen lane we will be losing the money-war. With the first tower down the adc farming a frozen lane suddenly is UNSAFE there as they have less control of that part of the jungle and we could push either tower next, making it possible to dive-gank and push once someone is alone (assuming oracle to clear jungle wards). It is a very agressive strategy and will either turn the game in our favor quickly or draw the game out long with the enemy having better farm, entering lategame with a disatvantage. Definitely preferable if they have strong lategame champs.
If they dont manage to freeze the lane we get ganking opportunities (or they get very little farm by staying back). Thats a win/win.
For toplane it is a bit different - most of the time top wants to get tanky (or get enough burst) to take out the carry (if not kill him, stop him from damaging anyone else). That means farm, farm and farm. A fast, tanky champ can push and just keep farming - if you saw singed in progames - they just push until the game ends because they cant really be stopped and if they ever come to fights the adc usually cant do anything to them.

I think pushing or not pushing needs to be decided before the game - it will depend on picks and the junglers game changes depending on it too. If the first enemy picks show a push-strat (= fast game) may be good for us, our remaining picks should support it.

Gandalf:
To your gp10 - as I said we should have an idea of how long we want the game to last and pick/build accordingly. Obviously GP10 is the way to go if we plan a long game (and can afford to get it without losing the lane)
We all need to work on our global awareness - while you could have shouted louder it was stupid of all of us that were there not to confirm where their last champ was before going in. Much like we went for a fight mid the other game into a 4v1 with the remaining 4 of their team right behind us... that was called on mumble too and noone listened^^

Mem again:
Dont worry about being calm - I have my own moments where I like to shout at peoples stupidity - I just learned not to push the push to talk button ;)
As we continue to get better (at least I hope we do :P ) that should become less of an issue anyway.

I heard tear of the goddess is good on singed now as it apparently activates again and again as long as singed poison trail is active (commentary of a progame, dont hunt me down if it turns out to be wrong :P )

Gandalf again:
You are absolutely right about having to know your champ - just following a guide may be good enough to win a blind pick game against a random opponent but will completely screw you against someone good with a champ even slightly countering yours if you dont know how to deal with it. Watching a pro (or simply good) player in action analysing him can give you the understanding you need - sometimes you can find a nice featured ranked game in the client with the matchup you are interested in. Another players perspective - while possibly not optimal - may just give you a new idea both for your build and laning tactic.

Or it may show you what not to do - like that malphite that kept leaving toplane to use his ult to kill grav mid for the 5th-10th time in a row (each giving less than 100 gold). Perfect bait grav btw. Your continuous sacrifices allowed jungle draven to lead you all to victory :P

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Re: Team progression

Postby Gandalf » Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:57 pm

You're right about tear on singed. It does activate on the poison so charges up very quickly, giving health (passive) and health regen (masteries) even before you turn it into an archngel's staff. I try and get it before rod of ages now. Once rod plus tear are up you have a ton of health and ap. I think in the game last Friday though, I should've squeezed some armor in there too.

Thanks for the rest of your wall of text Phantom, a lot to take in, learn & practice.

Re: Champs, if I am going to be top, I have 3 - Cho/singed/teemo. I'll try and add to that.
Re builds - yes, discussing aura items is something we should really do.

Something that comes up sometimes in games I am in is wheter to go to a teamfight (perhaps at the baron or dragon) or save a tower from 25+ minions. I generally get shouted at by team-mates (cough *l1ngus* cough) for doing this whilst the rest of the team dies horribly in the teamfight. Firstly the rest of my team are stupid for engaging a 4v5 fight. Secondly - what do you guys think about this situation - I think it's not so simple, it might be better to lose the tower if we are ahead and can be confident of winning the teamfight though. Often we are behind though, and the thinking I use is that saving a tower and letting them get baron is better than definately losing the tower and probably losing the teamfight AND baron as well.
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