Tiers

[Gandalf]

Thought I'd start a little discussion on tiers after some posts about it on another thread.

The tiers are supposed to rank teams based on difficulty and how good they are. I'm not really sure which is which to be honest. It's almost entirely subjective, with the little hard data to base it on being the win percentages, of which BB manager has a lot.

So here are a couple of subjective opinions from the internet.

http://bbowl.wikia.com/wiki/Current_Blood_Bowl_Teams

Tier I (Strongest - usually the most access to necessary skills, and the most likely to do well over the course of a typical season): Amazon, Dark Elf, Dwarf, Elf, High Elf, Human**, Norse, Ork, Skaven, Undead, Wood Elf

Tier II (Average - these teams, in the words of one player 'have clear strategic options, but often lack the starting skills to successfully implement them): Chaos, Chaos Dwarf, Khemri, Lizardman, Necromantic, Nurgle**, Slann**, Vampire**

Tier III (Lowest - these teams can win, but lack essential starting skills, or have significant weaknesses that make them less likely to win over the course of a typical season): Chaos Pact**, Goblin, Halfling, Ogre, Underworld

http://fumbbl.com/index.php?name=PNphpB ... ic&t=20408

Tier 1: Chaos Dwarf, Dwarf, Wood Elves, Skaven, Norse, Lizardmen, Orc, Undead, Amazon

Tier 2: Chaos, Human, Khemri, Pact, Slann, Dark Elves, High Elves, Nurgle, Necromantic, Pro Elves

Tier 3: Halflings, Gobbos, Vamps, Ogres, Underworld

During season 3 I think I've come to realise that a team's initial tier doesn't haven't to be what tier it ends up at. For example, halflings and ogres, both considered tier 3 teams. As a halfling team plays games, it will lose halflings, it may level up some but they are unlikely to live too long or get too many levels. Now my ogres, well, they do level up slowly, but because they are ST5 and AV9 they are likely to stick around and level up. What inhibits them is only having strength upgrades, but if you get lucky upgrade dice (which have given me a +AG ogre, a +MV ogre and an ogre with block) then this can be slightly negated, and you can end up with 6 ST5 guys who can accomplish a wide range of activities, so long as they aren't being Really Stupid that is. So I feel an ogre team does have more long-term potential than a halfling team in the long run (though as they are not playing the next season I can't test that out).

Another example are chaos, unspectacular to start with and a tier 2 team. However they have won the title twice. We must praise notj for this, but they do have access to a wide variety of skills, including the rare mutations category, and are quite durable too. Lots of long-term potential there as we have seen.

It also depends on what league you're in. Amazon versus a load of tackle isn't going to work out fantastically.

Any thoughts?

[notjarvis]

From my personal experience

I'm surprised to see Lizardmen as a tier one team personally, in your second chart, as they have pretty shit skills access.

Skinks can only get AG skills which is not that great, whilst the Saurus's struggle to skill up, as they depend on hitting and injuring.

Whilst Chaos have excellent skills availability, every player has average Agility

I'd agree with the first of the two tables as far as the two Teams I've player (Chaos, compared to lizardmen, even with starting teams is a bit of a beast IMO, potentially 5 ST4 players, everyone having an adequate AG

The exception is tournament rules where I believe you can select "Skill packages"

Starting with all saurus's with block for example would be awesome, and would immediately make the Lizardmen a tough prospect.

I'm looking forward to the Norse to be honest - they seem to be ranked highly, but I feel I'm going to lose a few players early due to low Armour, and will struggle next season.

[Raveen]

Interestingly the BBRC member who had the biggest input into LRB 6, Tom Anders (of Impact Miniatures fame), has stated that the tiers work as follows:

Tier 3: Stunties

Tier 2: Vampires

Tier 1.5: Slann, Chaos Pact, Underworld Pact (and Khorne Daemons although they aren't a LRB team)

Tier 1: Everything else

Gandalf hits the nail on the head though - each team has a TV at which they are optimised. Some teams start off quite poor but have good skill access and stats so develop into monsters (Chaos once they get block around the clock and a good smattering of MB, Claw and PO are a top team) whereas others start well (Amazons and Dwarfs for example) but peak early and get left behind.

I think it's a case of stats being better to start than skills. A Dwarf may start with block but he's most likely going to stay ST3. A Chaos Warrior is faster and stronger and only 6 SPPs away from getting block.

There are folks who argue that there's a defacto tier 0 as well - mostly this is Wood Elves, Dwarves at Low TV and Undead seem to be the usual suspects.

[lawastooshort]

Me and Daigoro looked at this a bit. In BBM you can look at win percentages at different TV. Interestingly, for example, Khemri are better at 1000-1200 than at all TVs... This is based on a lot of games uploaded, so is quite a good sample size I think.

I looked at the percentages of W/D/L and worked that out into an expected points per match (I also did this for just vs the other teams in the league for each team to get an expected points per game in the league...)

This ranked the teams thus (where TV1000 differentiates between that team at 1000-1200 TV as opposed to all TVs together) :

Amazon TV1000
Undead
Lizard
Welf
Cdwarf
Delf
Skaven
Amazon
Necro
Dwarf
Orc TV1000
Helf
Khemri TV1000
Elf
Orc
Chaos
Elf TV1000
Khem
Chaos TV1000
Norse
Nurgle
Human
Uwd TV1000
Vamp
Uwd
Khorne
Halfling TV1000
Goblin TV1000
Ogre
Ogre TV1000
Halfing
Goblin


Anyway, more on this later when Daigoro can be bothered (I have work to do).


edit: note Chaos bang in the middle - well done NJ.

[Gandalf]

Nice research. I knew the numbers were in BB manager but hadn't put the work in. Hopefully this will help people look for new teams to manage & set their expectations accordingly.

I guess this all tells us that notj just gets along with Chaos a lot better than lizardmen. Or maybe his opponents were rubbish. :p Though I'm quite glad we won't be seeing Chaos vs. Wood Elves this season. There might not be much left of my elves after that.

I played Vampires in single players for a bit. They are completely bizzare. ST4 AG4 players who eat their teammates occasionally. It's hard to tell what's going to happen so I can well imagine them being in a tier of their own.

[lawastooshort]

I played Vampires in single players for a bit. They are completely bizzare. ST4 AG4 players who eat their teammates occasionally. It's hard to tell what's going to happen so I can well imagine them being in a tier of their own.

Vampires are very close to Underworld - right in the middle between Uwd and Human. Identity played Vampires against me twice (I think, me using Uwd, Uwd W1D1L0) in a test match to decide on his team for next season. They are... interesting - quite tricky to play and to play against, but remove the vampires and they have problems...

I guess this all tells us that notj just gets along with Chaos a lot better than lizardmen. Or maybe his opponents were rubbish. :p

Well, I think there has to be a certain level of match between coach style and team... I find a lot of teams harder when they don't have an obvious strength - i.e. defending with Amazons is easy enough, but attacking when you have neither speed nor ultraviolence is tricky. This is a problem I have with the Mighty Undercheesers at the moment, I have to say, except with the easy defending bit