Sketching out some brief thoughts on Season 5a

[Raveen]

I mentioned a cryptic Season 5a in a post or two recently and it seems sensible to put some thoughts out now to give us all time to prepare.

My plan is to have the S5 cup on a fortnightly schedule. On the off weeks I want to hold a Swiss Pairing style Tournament specifically aimed at drumming up new players. Essentially, feed them a little bit of BB crack and see if we can't retain some.

The plan would be to get all those waverers and folks who would like to play but can't commit to play 3 games. Swiss Pairing works by pairing up winners vs Winners and Losers vs Losers after the first match so new people shouldn't be too out of their depths. Temmop and Red Lion, I'm thinking of you two in particular getting thrown in at the deep end, this might be a better introduction, if you have any thoughts please pipe up!

I would produce a tier list of races (likely 4 tiers) and I would expect the experienced players here to pick tier 3 or 4 teams - we aren't playing to win after all. All teams would be fresh TV 1000 teams (stunties may play below that level for Star Player purposes). We can't easily do a resurrection tournament and I don't really fancy that model as I see the team progression as a fun part of the game.

Games would ideally be on Sundays but players would be free to schedule for when they can play.

What do you all think? I figure that by planning this way in advance we can start getting potential players interested.

[lawastooshort]

That sounds quite interesting Rav.

I like the idea of having a second team to start and dabble in.

How would you determine the tiers? Because there aren't that many Tier 3 and 4 teams. But the idea of having Halfling vs Halfling matches is pretty nice.

[Raveen]

My current thoughts

Tier 4 = Ogres, Gobbos and Halfwits

Tier 3 = Khemri, Vamps, Underworld, Khorne, Nurgle

Tier 2 = Chaos, Humans, Lizardmen, Necros, Chaos Dorfs

Tier 1 = Dorfs, All the Elves, Norse, Amazon, Undead, Orcs, Skaven

Although that could use some tweaking based on the Low TV results in BBM (hint hint).

The point of advertising tiers is to ensure that new players pick teams that won't blow up in their faces or be too esoteric. Arguably High and Pro Elves could be Tier 2 as they aren't quite as good as Wooddies or Delfs.

I'd like to produce a short, polished, primer for a new player to pick up and get to know the rules of BB and the tournament. This could use some fun fluff so that would be worth starting on too. Boxouts like Did You Knows for example.

[lawastooshort]

I’ll see if I get time this evening to have a quick look at the TV bit.

[Gandalf]

You can look on this page and scroll down - gives you win percentages by race / TV, for FUMBBL, as opposed to Cyanide's game.

http://www.plasmoids.dk/bbowl/NTBB2014x.htm

Things that jump out at TV1000...

There's only 5 teams worse than high elves! They need those upgrades to make the most of their natural stats/skills.
Khemri and Norse are tier 2 or 1. Makes sense - their raw strength/skills count for a lot against un-upgraded players.
Orcs probably aren't top tier, they are 10th in winning ratio.
Lizards/CDwarves are top tier.

[lawastooshort]

I've seen that before for some reason, can't remember what in connection to. Although it has a huge sample size (and confidence intervals!) and matched TV, which is good, it is a different environment than the one I think the BBM data comes from - TV matchmaking dominated by Chaos and Nurgle, if I remember reading correctly (this might incidentally account for the poor Orc performance - plenty of Claw) - whereas I imagine BBM is used more for league play. I may well be entirely wrong. I think I just have a preference for BBM because I've been able to manipulate it myself before.

Anyway, off to have a look at the aforementioned BBM data...


So, I've done it slightly differently - average points per game based on amount of wins/draws, rather than just win percentages. I don't know how to do bbcode tables. All values are for TV1000-1200.

1.5 or more points per game
Undead, Lizards, Amazon, Dwarf - I think Lizards might be the trickiest of this group because they start with the least amount of basic skills.

1.45 or more points per game
Necro, Skaven, Wood Elf, Orc, Khemri - I think the skills and low AG makes Khemri trickier than this suggests for a beginner.

1.4 or more points per game
ChDwarf, Dark Elf, High Elf, Elf, Norse - odd, because a lot of skills on Norse (I find playing vs all that Block quite difficult...)

1.3 or more points per game - no skills for Chaos and a lot for humans, who just don't excel at anything.
Chaos, Human

1.19 or more points per game - Nurgle are right in between Human and Uwd/Vamps.
Nurgle, Uwd, Vampire, Khorne

0.95 or more points per game - Goblins and Ogres are on exactly the same.
Halfling, Goblin, Ogre


I think I'd suggest, if you want it in 4 Tiers,

Tier 1 = Undead, Lizards, Amazon, Dwarf, Necro, Skaven, Wood Elf, Orc, ChDwarf, Dark Elf

Tier 2 = Khemri, High Elf, Elf, Norse, Chaos, Human

Tier 3 = Nurgle, Uwd, Vampire, Khorne

Tier 4 = Halfling, Goblin, Ogre


Also worth considering - I think certain teams are more attractive for a beginner where they have a nice obvious bias towards bash or agility - you know what the general plan should be, which probably helps.

[Raveen]

Whilst the Fumbbl data is an excellent resource, I'd caveat it with the thought that almost all coaches on fumbbl are experienced players.

Cyanide has far more newbies and therefore the data is a bit better suited for this specific purpose. TV matchmaking in general favours some teams over others, Chaos can win games with 2 or 3 heavily developed players and the rest rookies.

Specific thoughts.

Khemri may well be tier 2 by the numbers. But for a new player they are tier 3 at best. The strength is nice but until you know what you're doing they are no fun at all.

Chaos Dwarves are clearly very good, but only once you know how to deal with the wildly different player types.

Undead and particularly Necro, might be tier 2 for a newbie for the same reason.

[DaigaroOgami]

The primer thing - Me & La whacked a bunch of 'Blood Bowl for noobs' quick guide things togehter for when Temmop joined the league. I don't have access to them anymore (I changed jobs) but I reckon Temmop and La could look through their inboxes and find them - They are by no means definitive, but would be a good place to start.

As a spokesperson for a Mushroom Dealer, I can confirm we like the idea of a gateway drug to this wonderful sport.

The biggest stumbling block (I think) is the steep initial learning curve; if we can get enough start material together to get over that then I reckon we could get some more players in...

I like the idea of having an almost 'open' league competition as well, be good to have a pool where the 'resting' teams can sit, but also to quickly show off the community side of the game when you're convincing new players - like Rav said, the team growth is a big part of the crack. I mean fun.

Top idea Rav. I'm happy to help if I can, keep us posted on what's happening.

[Raveen]

I was vaguely thinking a fluff filled advert/introduction to get people to sign up. Then, when they pick a team they get a sheet with more detailed stuff including their roster stats and a run down of the most common skills for that team + the usual suspects.

[id3nt1ty]

I'm in, coaching the mighty Halfling team Shadow Rangers Bloodbowl Club

[lawastooshort]

Oh! Tiers etc – more info involving TV1000 teams (I think it is, anyway, possibly with a minor skill selection)

http://naf.talkfantasyfootball.org/lrb6.html

[lawastooshort]

Any more thoughts on this Rav?

I still think it’s an okay idea if you have people in mind who might be attracted in. I do admit to occasional frustration at playing with sub-par teams (but they are fun) making me want to play something easier next time, rather than halflings



On a vaguely related note – but I didn’t want to start a new thread for it or start a season 6 thread yet – I was going to look in BBM or somewhere and see if I could see the TV progression over seasons for the various teams we’ve had, just out of personal interest.

[Gandalf]

I too would like some more news on this & new S5 cup (crossing my fingers re: qualifying for it). I'm still up for some silly games in the off-weeks but I think it does make more sense if we do get some maybes along.... Idan, temmop, maybe even my colleague at work (who hasn't played it for months and is in the middle of a house move so seems unlikely).

Khemri may well be tier 2 by the numbers. But for a new player they are tier 3 at best. The strength is nice but until you know what you're doing they are no fun at all.

Assuming we don't have different tiers for newbies and vets I suggest complicating things a tiny bit more and put asterisks next to some teams to signify they are a more complicated team to play. I think there's a suggested list of these at the bottom of the LRB. So... put them in tier 2 (their true TV1000 tier - meaning vets can't pick them) and asterisk them so newbies are less likely to pick them.

[Raveen]

I haven't had time to think much more about this or to whip up any outside interest so I'm going to suggest we shelve it for now.

the S5 Cup will follow on from the league - dates to be finalised once everyone's internet stops tormenting me.

Do we want to start sign ups for Season 6?

Gandalf, remember I was looking at 4 tiers not 3, so the bottom tier 2 teams dropped into tier 3, that was my logic anyway. The tiers aren't a hard and fast thing beyond the stunty teams being bottom.

[Gandalf]

la's post above show Khemri are in the top 9 for TV1000-1200 teams so if your top 2 tiers have 15 teams in them as they do currently, it seems a bit of a stretch to put them 16th or below. Your justification for moving them down was "they are hard for newbies" - I'm not entirely sure if that is true but anyway that's why I suggested an asterisk for newbies as a compromise. Ultimately though I agree with you that tiers aren't a hard & fast thing and it's probably not a good idea to use supposed tiers for anything formal.

Yes let's start a S6 signup thread. About the cup, I'm away for 31st May. If we finish the league on time and go straight into the cup that date will be the cup final so I'm unlikely to be there, but I do seem to have been playing with loaded dice in recent weeks so who knows. Ideally though I would like to be around to watch the cup final.